When Anna Hazare walked towards the Ramlila Maidan, he knew he had knowingly/unknowingly sparked off one of India’s biggest movements against anything. This fight however, is against the gravest of ills afflicting the country today, Corruption. Like a pandemic virus, corruption has infected every facet of Indian life, from the water we drink, the roads that we travel on and even to the ubiquitous mobile phone. It was but a matter of time before the tolerance limit of the common man was breached and the revolution to begin. However, every revolution has its detractors and naysayers and this one is no different.
So in an attempt to discredit this renaissance, here are some of the gems gifted to us by the Government and some of my fellow countrymen/women.
According to some of them the Jan Lok Pal, as Anna Hazare proposes, will become a
The other awesome theory by the party in power was
The second theory is so preposterous that even the thought of discussing it is blasphemous. However, there are some opinions which make the first theory look like a realistic possibility. I am just taking some of the points raised by a blogger who I also believe is a member of the print media.
This gentleman says, Anna Hazare is wrong and Lok Pal is a bad idea. He has raised a few red flags in the Jan Lok Pal bill. I will try to rebut all his arguments and try pointing out, why he may not be correct. (The original blog is here: FAQ: Why Anna Hazare is wrong and Lok Pal a bad idea). I am quoting what he said verbatim so that there are no accusations of foul play and misquote.
Point 1: No, (Lok Pal) not only is unnecessary, it will make the problem worse. Corruption in India arises because of too much government, too many rules, too much complexity and too much ambiguity. Adding one more, huge, powerful layer to an already complex system will make the system even more complicated. Complexity creates the incentives for corruption–both on the part of the bribe giver and the bribe taker.
Mr Acorn, the Jan Lok Pal, as envisaged by the civil society, does not intend to add a another layer to the already complicated system. It envisages to create another mechanism all together. The Jan Lok Pal and the subsidiary Lok Ayuktas are designed to be new institutions created exclusively to combat the cancer of corruption. It aims to merge the existing anti-corruption mechanisms under a single umbrella to create a one stop shop for any corruption related grievances. Once the Lok-pal is instituted, anyone who wants to complain about corruption in any government office has to go to the Lok Ayukta/Lok Pal. How complicated is that?
Point no 2: We don’t need a Lok Pal at all. Making existing constitutional institutions—like CAG, CVC, CBI and the Election Commission—more independent will serve the purpose equally well. If we have been unable to prevent the politicization and undermining of these institutions why would we be able to prevent the Lok Pal from being politicized and undermined? If we can prevent Lok Pal from being politicized and undermined, why can’t we restore the independence and credibility of CAG, CVC, CBI and the Election Commission?
Yes Mr Acorn and then do what? CAG is a constitutional body, without any powers of investigation and prosecution. All they can do is audit and submit the report to the Parliament. Give them as much independence you want, but under the constitution of India, that is all they are supposed to do. The election commission’s job is to conduct elections and they are doing a damn good job of it. Why do you want to increase their burden? and the CBI investigates everything from a murder case in Delhi to the high profile 2G scam. Do you want to overload their already full plate? And as far as the CVC is concerned, it is like a king Cobra, but only defanged. If I remember correctly former CVC chief N Vitthal put up the names of all the offenders on the CVC website. Did it lead to anything? All I know was that the website was shut down. Come on Mr Acorn.
Also Mr Acorn, what do you mean by more independence? Give the CAG prosecution powers? Give the Election Commission authority to investigate corruption? Let us see, then according to you, we have 4 bodies investigating corruption in the Government. I really do not know, how four ‘independent’ arms of the government is better than one independent arm which is an amalgamation of all the four?
Finally, You raise the point of the Lok Pal being politicized and all that. Yes, if given a chance our beloved politicians will politicize their pet dogs. Which is where the checks and balances and the provision of a collegium comes into the picture.
Point 3: The problem with Jan Lok Pal is that it’ll make the problem worse. Does anyone seriously think we can hire tens of thousands of absolutely honest officials who will constitute the Lok Pal? Who will keep watch on them? Maybe we need a Super Lok Pal, and then a Hyper Lok Pal to watch over the Super Lok Pal and so on…This isn’t sarcasm, this is the logical extension of the Lok Pal argument.
Not if you select the collegium correctly. Three Judges of the Supreme Court, Two MP’s nominated by the ruling party and two from the opposition, Speaker of the Lok Sabha and the Vice-President (Let him do something other than giving speeches and managing the Rajya Sabha) can form a collegium who can become the Board of Directors supervising the functioning of the Lok Pal. They will also nominate its CEO and deal with complaints against the Lok Pal members and its officials. So now, we have a supervisory body, giving a modicum of power to the elected member without compromising Lok Pal’s integrity and autonomy. I am not saying the above option is correct, but we can explore and find the right approach. After all Dhoondne pe to Bhagwan bhi milte hain (You can even find God if you look for him).
The point that you raised about the manpower needed to run the Lok Pal (or rather the lack of it ) is the most ridiculous piece of argument Mr Acorn. The bill says the Jan Lok Pal will be formed by merging the CVC, Vigilance wings in all the Government departments and the Anti-Corruption wing of the CBI. So it is not as if the recruitment has to start from scratch. Mr Acorn, also let me tell you one more thing. Do not discount the existing vigilance departments, they put fear of God in the govt servants, but cannot go far because of the statutory limitations. Give these men the necessary freedom and the environment, which is what the Jan Lok Pal intends to do, and they will work wonders. (CBI and 2G scam, remember)
And to secure the future expansion, introduce a new service under the UPSC. Call it the ‘Indian Regulatory Service’ and recruit youngsters directly to it and train them. Give them ranks equivalent to their IPS counterparts and the man-power problem for the future is addressed. Follow the same policy to recruit the Lok Pal’s constabulary.
Just want to add that if you spent as much time on seeking a solution to the problems as you did on extending the argument, you wouldn’t have even raised this question. And on a personal note, I am also against the collegium as proposed by Anna Hazareji and the civil society members, but the issues as you can see can be overcome.
Point 4: Of course we have the right to protest peacefully. But it’s not about whether we have the right or not. It’s about are we using that right wisely. (You have the freedom of speech but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to blast Eminem using a loudspeaker at 2am in a residential district.)
As Ambedkar said while introducing the Constitution in November 1949, once the Constitution came into force, we should avoid all non-constitutional methods like protests and satyagraha, for they are the grammar of anarchy. If two persons go on fasts until death for two opposing reasons, we cannot decide the issue by allowing one person to die first.
Fast until death is political blackmail. It is a form of theatre engaged in to coerce the government into doing something that the agitators want. Whatever may be the cause, a single person cannot be allowed to dictate laws to the whole nation.
Let us examine why this protest is happening in the first place. First, the Government proposes the Lok Pal bill and then makes the present Agriculture Minister of India, the Chairman of its drafting committee. Now unless you are an ostrich or a toddler or a Norwegian, I am sure you know the credentials and the qualifications of this particular gentleman.( If not, read this). Let me give you an illustration if you don’t have the time to read the link. It was with the blessings of this gentleman, a certain 39.8 acres in Yerawada, expanded overnight to 398 acres(And it is not due to Thermal expansion, that much I can assure you). So when you have a person of such caliber authoring the only bill designed to stop his ilk, you are bound to get frustrated. In most of the other countries, this is what would have happened
But then, Anna being the Gandhian that he is, started the first part of the agitation and dare I say, rightly so. That resulted in the civil society members being invited on the drafting committee in the first place. And of course the exit of the aforementioned gentleman.
Now, when you invite a certain set of people on a committee, you imply that you are ready for a discussion. However, our esteemed ministers of the government called them, served them tea, coffee and samosas and took their suggestions promising to incorporate them in the final version of the bill.However what came out was an entirely new and a radically different version, opposed unanimously by all the civil society members. Naturally when the person you slighted is guy named Anna Hazare, this had to happen.
Perusing the government bill, we can conclude that the the person most likely to be punished under this bill, will be the poor soul who actually had the guts to complain. You know what is actually worse than the absence of a bill for corruption, the presence of an absolutely hopeless one. Let me list out some of the salient features to enlighten you on its hopelessness
1. The term corruption is not defined
2. It says the Lok-pal selection committee shall regulate its ‘own procedure for selecting the Chairman and Lok-pal members and shall be ‘Transparent’. No mention of how it will be done and how transparency will be maintained.
3. No protection for the whistle blower.
Won’t go into details of this, but will guide you here. Just a glance shows how meticulous the civil society Jan Lok Pal Bill is and how arbitrary and shoddy the government has made it.
Mr Acorn, you say once we have the constitution and the parliament we should not resort to, what you term ‘Grammar of Anarchy’. So by your argument, if the Government passes a bill which Legalizes Sati and the Khap Panchayats would you say, it is the wish of the Parliament and as it is contingent to the constitution of the country you will not do anything? If you agree, then I believe you don’t have the right to comment on the bill in the first place.
And your last argument about the fact that any Tom, Dick and Harry will be able to arm-twist the government into accepting his/her demands if Anna Hazare’s agitation is a success. All I will say Mr Acorn, that going by that statement you assume the average Indian Citizen is a fool and will support anything. This movement is as big as it is, only because of the voluntary (Stress on that word), vehement and the wholehearted support of the average Indian Citizen (read Common Man) and I am confident he /she will not come out in droves for any other human being, making your argument redundant.
Point 5: It is entirely possible to oppose the UPA government’s politics and policies, while recognizing that it is the legitimately constituted government of the country. Individuals and parties might suffer from a legitimacy deficit because of flagrant corruption, but the Government of India as an institution remains the legitimate authority to make policy decisions for the whole nation.
Mr Acorn, but what if they take the wrong decision? Don’t tell me you will go to courts, abide by the law etc etc. It is, frankly BS. I was a fresher, out of engineering college when 26/11 happened. Now I am an IT guy with a work-ex of almost 3 years, and Kasab is still not proven guilty, and as you like logical extensions, presumed innocent. Our judiciary takes more than three years to prove a guy who killed 100 people in cold blood, and was photographed with an AK-47 in hand, guilty. What hope do we as common citizens have in the judiciary? If you want another example of our inefficient judiciary, take the Jessica Lall case. Would the lumbering wheels of our justice system moved in that case, if not for the intense public pressure against the judiciary? Going by your argument, If this protest is illegal, then so was that one.
You know why the government, successive ones at that, have become so corrupt. It is because they thought the daily grind of survival will ensure a common man does not have the time for things like protests and agitations. However, the flagrant corruption of parties and individuals as you put it, has percolated so deep down the psyche of a common man, that today it has overridden his desire for survival. What you are seeing Mr Acorn is an volcanic outburst of all the pent up anger of the Indian citizens. They can no longer see the wanton rape of our beautiful country. And they don’t care about constitutional procedures and statues. They want results. And the they includes me.
I am not saying all the members of the Lok Pal will be honest, there will be a few black sheep there. But the Jan Lok Pal, If allowed, punishes even one babu/MP/Minister, it would have achieved more than what our present system has done in the last 60 years or so. And that for me and dare I say,most of the citizens, counts as success.
I guess Mr Acorn, you have a rebuttal for most of the concerns you raised. But I have kept your ‘Reforms 3.0’ Idea for my next blog. But I must say, you have a sense of humour when you suggested liberal economy equals less corruption. But that is for another day.
The Kaipullai's Vetti Thoughts : The outer playground of my inner devil 
great reply !
brilliant….finally somebody who makes some sense! hats off to you! its a shame that a lot of people are dismissing Anna hazare’s initiative over their intellectual coffee table discourses… here’s a man who’s standing up for all of us at 74 years of age when our govt. n parliament are slumbering, and all we can think of is ways to find faults with his movement. Some say we can strengthen and give more autonomy to the existing institutions like CAG, EC and CVC… yes that can be done and its brilliant that ppl have suddenly woken up from their sleep to come up with suggestions like that…..but who made this happen …yes sir, its that old man ANNA.. and lets not forget even the strengthening of what we have will need legislative action and hence another revolution of this sort. The lokpal might not be a solution to all our problems but it is definitely a first step and I am proud of this man and the unprecedented wave of nationalism that he has created in our country…. today,public accountability matters to each one of us …it is anna who has changed our sab chalta hai and sau mein se ninyanve baiman fir bhi mera bharat mahan kind of attitude…. salutations to him and shame on all those who think this movement is just another way to create sensation or a debate to be conducted in their intellectual circles…. Some say that the lokpal can become corrupt as well….but are we not willing to take that chance in a country where the entire system is rotten. Though it is highly unlikely that it may happen, but even in the worst case scenario, don’t you think it is easier to combat one corrupt lokpal than to combat billions and trillions of corrupt termites in our system….. this is the awakening of a nation and I feel sorry for all those who cant see themselves as a part of it! Yes I support Anna Hazare and will do till the last breath of my life 🙂
Thanks for your kind words and inspiration. Really mean a lot to me and my new blog.
Will be waiting for your next post. Regards.
Nice post man.i agree a lokpal is required but dont you think the jan lokpal on its present form does concentrate too much power in one hand? I was reading about themechanism proposed by aruna roy which envisages a lokpal to probe political corruption and corruption in the higher bureaucracy and bringing other laws like the judicial accountability bill and whistleblowers protection act.
It would be nice if team anna listens to and incorporates other esteemed civil society members who have differing views on the bill.currently they seem to be a bit stubborn
but this fast was required since the govt. keeps surpassing all heights of stupidity every day.what the govt. needs to do is to remove the current bill and have wide ranging discuasions and also explain to people their reservations against the jan lokpal so we know what exactly the problem is.
So in effect,the govt. needs to show some guts and initiative and team anna needs to relent a bit.
Yeah it kinda of does. So the presence of a very good oversight committee is a must. What I am saying is, when you are going to pass a landmark bill or a law, these differences are bound to be there. But you can’t use one flaw, and reject the whole bill outright. The other thing, is that the the objective of the lok pal, and dare say the whole agitation is pointless, if the lok pal has no jurisdiction over all the levels of the government. Remember it is not the high level corruption that affects the common man, but the one at the other end of the spectrum. And I believe, flexibility is not an issue with Anna and the civil society, but the minister. And honestly, I am sick of the word, committee. Mebbe i will blog on it, in the near future
hahahah u have more brains than these pelpoe who are sooo jobless ,just to bunk school,college n work for their benefit n support this old fool,who need to be in bed preparing himself to go(die)we dont live in a perfect world, and we can’t expect one. fuck corruption .GO ALONG ..GET ALONG
1. “It envisages to create another mechanism all together. The Jan Lok Pal and the subsidiary Lok Ayuktas are designed to be new institutions created exclusively to combat the cancer of corruption. It aims to merge the existing anti-corruption mechanisms under a single umbrella to create a one stop shop for any corruption related grievances.”
So, does that mean all existing systems for dealing with these problems cease to exist. If that is NOT the case, then it only becomes more complicated as explained in the parent article as it adds another layer.
2. One all powerful independent body instead of 4 independent bodies are dangerous. So much power concentrated in one place is definitely something to be scared of.
3. “and the CBI investigates everything from a murder case in Delhi to the high profile 2G scam. Do you want to overload their already full plate?”
“The bill says the Jan Lok Pal will be formed by merging the CVC, Vigilance wings in all the Government departments and the Anti-Corruption wing of the CBI. So it is not as if the recruitment has to start from scratch.”
Contradictory, I would say.
4. “Also Mr Acorn, what do you mean by more independence? Give the CAG prosecution powers? Give the Election Commission authority to investigate corruption? ”
Seriously, this guy doesn’t know what independence means?
5. “What you are seeing Mr Acorn is an volcanic outburst of all the pent up anger of the Indian citizens. They can no longer see the wanton rape of our beautiful country. And they don’t care about constitutional procedures and statues. They want results. And the they includes me.”
They don’t care about the constitutional procedures and statutes. Wow, are we still rooting for democracy? Or do “they” want a monarch who wants to put everyone who is alleged in jail without trial? Considering, “What hope do we as common citizens have in the judiciary?”, I’m guessing that’s what “they” want.
@sajad
To your first point, yes. There is no need for any other system for anti corruption, if the Lok-pal is in place. Anything related to corruption, has to be dealt by the Lok Pal/Lok Ayukta. As I said, one stop shop for everything related to corruption. And to achieve that effectively, u need to amalgamate all existing anti-corruption mechanisms in India, which are anyway highly limited and stunted. Case in point, the CBI needs to take the permission of the government to investigate an MP or a Bureaucrat. So effectively you need take the permission of the person whom you may conduct an inquiry against. So you need a truly independent system for effective operation.
The point you made about the concentration of power. Yes it is a concern, so i pointed to a necessity of the collegium, with representation from all sections of the society. And that includes the elected representatives as well. Unchecked power, yes is a concern. But an institution that is governed and regulated can be effective without going overboard.
About the CBI, the points are not contradictory. The first point was made in the context of asking the CBI to investigate all the corruption cases. They are already overloaded with a plethora of cases and there are dime a dozen scams in India, at any given point of time. So you cannot investigate all effectively, and in time. And i also presume there are no dedicated officers to investigate corruption cases alone. And the second was recruitment, when the author raised the issues of lack of officers. For that I said, pick the guys who have worked on corruption cases before while in the CBI and transfer them to the Lok Pal. From now on all they will do is go after the corrupt, and not find who killed whom and where. And they will be reinforced by officers from the CVC, and other departmental anti-corruption officers.
Seriously, this guy doesn’t know what independence means? I presume by ‘this guy’ you meant Mr Acorn
Wow, are we still rooting for democracy? Or do “they” want a monarch who wants to put everyone who is alleged in jail without trial? : What i mean was, people want to see the corrupt get punished. Isn’t it a shocking statistic that not one of the bureaucrats/ministers have been convicted of corruption since independence. What this has done is, it has emboldened the bureaucrats to even go to greater heights. You don’t have to look farther than the IAS couple in Bhopal. They allegedly embezzled money meant for the welfare of the Bhopal Gas victims. Can you get more deplorable than that? We need a system that puts the fear of god in them, and lok pal can be that. Lok Pal get sa complaint, Lok Pal investigate within the stipulated time period. If it finds the complaint is true, the officer is question is screwed. If not, then the guy who complained is. Mebbe the govt and the civil society, need to work on the status of the accused in the period of the trial. But as i said, it can be worked out.
Also Lok pal can be effective only with the judiciary involved. Let them dedicate a seperate bench to the Lok Pal, with high court judges, dedicated to the ruling in the cases filed in the Lok Pal. It will ensure a fair hearing, a speedy dispensation to the justice, both to the benefit of the officer and the general public.
Brilliant post. Gives me something to use when I counter people against the Jan Lokpal Bill
Your post have the information that is hepflul and very informative. I would like you to keep up the good work. You know how to make your post understandable for most of the people. Thumbs up and Thanks
Thala!!!! ounce here da….very coherent rebuttals da!!!! I know how difficult it is to put loose hanging thoughts and arguments into a coherent article.Something I can never do. Great job !!!
U flatter me thalai…
Well,al said to much,some giving thier body as a support medium…And some thier thoughts,which i call as a intellectual medium to support..Its really Nice to known that we still have people who really do care about country…and ready to protest anytime they are demanded,perhaps thier everyday problems and critics are still thier live,forgettin that…We are united today as one…Atleast most of us,excluding acorn…And few people,and i bet thier are only few people like that blockehead….I wish we attain a total corruption free country..And i want i today..No tomos and no day after tommorows…!
Excellent post my friend! I really appreciate the amount of ground work you have done to write this post! keep blogging on such critical issues..India needs people like you to communicate ideas in a much more reader friendly language! 🙂
The easy and reader friendly language is not intentional dude. Guess it is just exposes my limited vocabularyl!!! But thanks again for your encouragement 😀
Excellent!!! not a word is wrong and very clear thoughts. Keep posting more to inspire people.
Shesha – Good start !!!
As per Arvind kejriwal – Lok pal investigating officer posses only the power to investigate….no judiciary powers – whatz u r take on that?
to me- common man suffers a lot with low level govt officials in RTO office , taluk office etc etc- if you really want our corrupt politicians to bend down to create a strong lok pal – they will defenitely agree if it brings only the officials inside the ambit
anyday- none of them are gonna approve a suicide bill to themselves..bcoz all are corrupt..they will lose all their illegal assets….. next step after the officals only inside the ambit – bring politicians inside with a clause that only corruption hence forth will be investigated and not the history fo charges – this might safeguard them and they might approve
these are some practical suggestions or possible things as a start
no way- shard pawar or any other corrupt politicians will approve a bill that will cause trouble to them….our dream is really noble..but to materialise the same..we need patience and start with the points that they will accept
@Yes boss, erasing history is a good idea. But I also believe, corruption here is interlinked. I mean, take the 2G scam, it has its origins in the environment ministry. One piece of corruption today might have its origin in some past action.
And as far as the politicians are concerned, mebbe they now realize the Jan Lok Pal bill is the short-cut to power. If the BJP or any other opposition party tomorrow says, elect us and we will pass the bill, the government has to act. Mebbe we can start a VDIS type of scheme, where you say, please confess to all your scams and return the money or whatever is left of it and we might pardon you. Forgiveness works in India big-time.
And as far as the judgement is concerned, I maintain the judiciary has to create a special bench for Lok Pal/Lok Ayukta related cases for speedy dispensation of justice. Cancer if detected has to be removed without delay
A wonderful post indeed.. Taking your time for supporting the cause itself shows how much you value the need for change.. I am glad you emphasized the point!!
Rightly said indeed.. Its high time we realized the need for change..!! With the right attitude we can make wonders for our motherland..!!! There is no point in being laid back… Even if some good comes out of this.. its a huge success..
Excellent post! I am sharing this with a lot of ppl! Great work my friend!
Good Post…if not much it is atleast creating a consciousness in the minds of people not just in India but all oversees. I am sure people across the word are watching this. Corruption is a psychological problem unless our minds are not tuned and a fresh thought of existence is brought in not much is possible. What do i mean by fresh thought of existence is that “it is not my problem attitude should be avoided” corruption starts from the mind. In our day to day like we are so negligent and careless about our relations, surroundings, habits, behavior etc. Its a process that the whole human race should adopt. we dont care to keep our surroundings clean, we dont try to keep our relations good both at home and outside, we pay money thinking that the work be done for the time being otherwise who nows how much time it would take or even it would be done or not, we are afraid and that is because of the system of which we are also a part. when it comes to us we would also try to make our bite out of the system so that we can make our own lives more cushy and comfortable.
Our constitution is the biggest constitution in the world and the laws in India are so many that let apart the common citizens even the learned lawyers would not remember most of them. It is not just making laws and more laws just for the heck of it but what is most important is implementation and enforcement. If you make it little strong it will be termed as draconian and if little mild it will be termed a toothless. If there is no will to make it work nothing can be done by bringing in any number of laws. Suppose a person does not pay bribe and the other person does not take the matter is solved. we need not even know what law is in operation. For instance a murderer would still murder even if he is knowing the law. Similarly the greed to make fortune by short cuts is so high that it will not check the corruption no matter what law is in operation. But surely they will try to find out other means to make quick money if another law is brought in force. You see as i said earlier it is psychological problem. Unless the society in whole rejuvenates its mindset not much will be achieved.
But yes this movement will go a long long way in the minds of not just people in India but also abroad that there is some thing wrong. The checking that has to be done is within and if you decide to try keep your records right, you need not worry about breaking the laws your worry would only be that others should not break laws which would effect you. This problem would also be put to check if the other person also decides to try to keep his records right.
Hope this happens. It might be good for the entire human race.
Currently, none of the bureaucrats have the power as much as Lokpal has, still the corruption has rooted strongly throughout the system. Just a single question. Then what if the Lokpal, who is highly empowered, becomes corrupt?
The Lok Pal should have an internal affairs division, which will act as a watchdog and will report directly to the collegium. Any complaint against a serving Lok Pal officer will be handled by this division and the time that the complaint has to be investigated and addressed will be half the time that is set for normal investigations. The special lok pal bench will hear the plea. A viable solution. for too much concentration can be found, if there is a will, which i find strangely lacking
please tell me how many candidates were there in your constituency during the last election…how amny of them were independent and how many of them are hiighly educated..if you dont know the answer for this you must be a fool and just to satisfy one idiots ego you are joining hands with him…
i hate corruption…i dont jump red signls…i dont litter the environment…i dont pay bribes but pay higher fines if i didnt comply any law…now ppl like you (auto union in delhi is supporting Anna Hazare, this is one example) are telling me what is correct..i dont raise my voice coz itms my govt which is there in center or in my state, whether i voted for it or not…
jus turn your TV on and see the way your Anna team speaks its noting more than a conspiracy (The word like please dont take himsa route being spoken repeatedly will only make ppl think abt it more..tat too these things were spoken when there is no proof of anna being hospitalised forecefullly. Note – Hospitalised and not arrested, guess this can be conveyed differently)
when babri majid was destriyed there was a huge crowd..when communal clashes took places in mumbai, gujarath etc most people of same communities were ok with killing other community members…guess if you had been the PM then you would have allowed them to carry on by taking the popular voices…
GOD SAVE INDIA…
If you were speaking at an oratory competition, you would have been disqualified for being incoherent. What is the point that you are trying to make sir? And how does me not knowing the answer to the number of candidates in my constituency stop me from taking a stand?
I believe that it is because it is your government, you have to raise your voice against it. Akin to you raising your voice against a friend who is doing a mistake which will ruin his as well as your life. And remember we (I mean the people who are supporting Anna in this ) are not telling you what is correct and what is wrong, I or anyone for that matter cannot do it. We are just giving you both sides of the coin, It is for you to decide what is right and take a stand.
And finally please don’t insult this movement by comparing it with the communal riots which are a blot on our country. When was the last time you saw such outpouring of emotion and coming together of people from all communities, religions and classes. I have never seen India come together and unite like this in my lifetime. Appreciate that atleast if not anything else. If you cannot praise, it’s fine as long as you don’t criticize or slander.
WELL SAID . TRUTH TRIUMPHS !!!
JAI HIND
JAI ANNA HAZARE.
Acorn’s article/FAQ talks about awakening of the middle class as the rightful alternative, how practical is that considering that middle class has not reacted since freedom struggle(even during freedom struggle Iam skeptical whether middle class moved much muscle).
Given this situation, we are seeing that the people(yes the middle class) are aligning with one man’s steely resolve(Anna’s), not because they have done due diligence and are convinced about the cause and its pros and cons, but because we all believe in(and are waiting for) messiahs who deliver the goods for us, and since we do not believe in ourselves.
When we can’t plan and act ourselves, we will have to go with other’s plans for us.
That said, if we can take this movement forward and use this civilian power to ensure that good leaders are recruited and promoted in politics(and the bad ones purged, one such plan is detailed here: http://greatindiagroup.blogspot.com/2010/09/know-root-cause-of-all-problems-in.html), it would be all the more better.
Nailed it KS bro!point by point!And the manner you keenly respond to contrary views in comment section is remarkable.I have discovered the detractors of this movement put forth that the majority supporting the movement dont know anything about it,this might be true but you start discussing it with them and you finally realise that actually even they are not aware as to why they are against the movement or Anna or Civil Society or a part of it or any combination of it.It ends either by your argument which simply knock them off or slug fest where the whole issue goes down the drain and personal insults ensues.Its very sad that the minorities have been highly misled by their leaders(and successfully to some extent) to keep away from the movement with shitty excuses ranging from chanting of slogans to a separate lokpal for minorities(as if this bill is meant to benefit a selected section of society only). Commendable job….keep it up.
And with your permission I am sharing it,,,,,,,,anna rascala mind it!
Share it with as many people as u want mate..let the ignorant be shown the light :)..atleast on the lol pal issue
Your response is very nicely written. Following is a concern. May be you know the answer.
I looked at the Jan Lokpal Bill version 2.3. Refer to page 13 where it defines the function of a Lokpal. 6 (c) says:
after completion of investigation in any case involving an allegation of an act of corruption, to impose punishment of dismissal, removal or reduction in rank against government servants after giving them reasonable opportunities of being heard.
But 6 (e) says: to initiate prosecution before a Special Court established under the Prevention of Corruption Act, 1988 f) to ensure the proper prosecution of cases before a Special Court established under the Prevention of Corruption Act, 1988.
I am confused whether the Lokpal can (I) impose punishment or (II) can only do the investigation and prosecution in the special courts and let the court decide the punishment.
At least in this part the Lokpal bill written by the government is much more clear. See Chapter III and IV of the government bill.
I believe the Lok Pal should only initiate action and file charges, but the ultimate decision on whether the accused is guilty or not should be left to the courts. But the courts should institute special benches to hear the Lok Pal, as the corrupt should be stopped immediately. Most of the times, due to the inordinate length of the trial, the accused has the chance not only to further corrupt the system but also destroy the evidence of his past sins.
“Anna being the Gandhian that he is”
Gandhi never flogged anyone. Anna Hazare has physically flogged many people. Calling Violent Anna as peaceful Gandhi is an insult to Gandhi.
I also believe there is something called context. Now why and whom did Anna flog? Alcoholics who turned into wife abusers and others of their ilk. And if u believe persons falling under the above categories should be dealt with in the classic Gandhian non-violent way, then I have nothing else to say. And one more request, please don’t follow our media and quote instances out of context.
What would gandhi do?
British are engaged in a genocide against the Native Zulus of South Africa. Would gandhi support the Zulu and grow a minute spinal cord to speak against the genocide? Or, would he actively aid & abet the British genocidal armies by playing the role of a medic/First-aid member in their army?
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I’d rather term that slime the greatest duratma of contemporary times.
MN
Also, please read this
Loved your latest posts – Four little things that shaped India and the one on Mallya. Then I stumbled upon this one. I must say serious stuff is not your forte!
‘Mr Acorn, the Jan Lok Pal, as envisaged by the civil society, does not intend to add a another layer to the already complicated system. It envisages to create another mechanism all together.”
Doesn’t that make it more complicated? It will also lead to concentration of power about which you agree but justify it by bringing in the wisdom of a collegium. But what if bunch of people with vested interests (or their representatives) cobble up a majority in this collegium. It would make a fifth “liitle thing” and would make an excellent addition to your latest post! 😀 And that is not some highly improbable fantasy. If goons can make it to our legislature after getting the nod from a majority in their constituency, under the watchful eyes of the Election commission, it should be a piece of cake!
“Once the Lok-pal is instituted, anyone who wants to complain about corruption in any government office has to go to the Lok Ayukta/Lok Pal. How complicated is that?”
This issue here is not that of complication. But the sheer impracticality of the statement and also your ignorance of the ground reality . You make the Lokpal look like a fairy with a wand. Karnataka had a Lokayukta who managed to bring down a chief minister almost single handedly. He represented what you suggest as a “single umbrella”. But did his presence bring down corruption? A visit to any Govt. Agency will give you the answers.
Story time! During a recent visit to an RTO office, I was witness to an “educated youth” with above par academic capabilities and employed with the top of the league IT company paying bribe (her dad was boasting about these). Reason? The newly introduced, incorruptible, computerised driving test failed her! Moral of the story: As long as it suits both parties – the giver and taker of bribes, corruption will continue, Lokpal or no Lokpal.
“So by your argument, if the Government passes a bill which Legalizes Sati and the Khap Panchayats would you say,…”
This again reeks of your ignorance of the democratic, parliamentary system! Do you think any elected government can commit such foolhardy acts? The current central government that is infamous for achievements that are not half as scandalous as the one you suggest is not expected to get re elected. And I’m not even brining in the judiciary, that can make such acts null and void on grounds of being unconstitutional. You cite the Kasab case which is hardly the right analogy. Does the country stand to lose anything more than it has lost already by letting them commit 26/11? Some pride? Enough said about that the better! But a better analogy would be the quick verdict on the 2G case which had more than just pride at stake.
“This movement is as big as it is, only because of the voluntary (Stress on that word), vehement and the wholehearted support of the average Indian Citizen”
What happened to the wholehearted support in Mumbai? How many turned up? Switch off the media interest and much of this support will vanish. Do you thing all our elected representatives made it without support. Even some hillbilly MP/MLA would have mustered more numbers than Anna Hazare!
“You know why the government, successive ones at that, have become so corrupt”
Because WE the citizens of India help them. We elect/re elect them to power! And they understand this reality. Who makes them corrupt? A study of the least corrupt countries and what makes them so will reveal the answers. It is definitely not the MERE existence of an Ombudsman. A lot of differences exist in the systems in place and also the mindsets of people.
Corruption will not end, or even decline by significant levels unless there are systemic changes to disincentivise corruption. Creating a body like the Lokpal is not it.
One of the best writing styles on Internet i hav came across…Read all ur Blogs and its been a pleasure knowing that u r an engineer since I had not expected a Art student to talk so sense and such precision….Gr8 Going….
Mr.Vetti… in trying to refute the other blog, you hv simply given strong emotionally motivated response. If the goal is to fight corruption of existing government bodies, how can creating another body help? Its a very sweet dream set to crash. You talk as if there are uncorruptible government bodies(or bodies of any kind fr tht matter)..
CBI, CVC, and EC are also corrupt in places that can be hidden.
Theoretically corruption can be stopped in only two ways. 1) Pull the snakes fang. I.e separate power from governance.
2) Appoint an impartial judge who measures and metes punishment.
The current constitution has implemented several mechanisms to pull the snakes fang out. So far they hv simply ended up as another layer of corruption.
Jan Lok Pal though idealistic still defies basic economics, and so long as it does, no system is going to help. Basic economics dictate that Incentives have to align with the result intended. What are the incentives driving each member elected or formed in the jan lokpal?
Try answering that question n ull know why jan lokpal wont work.
The 2nd method is the only way. Find an impartial judge. No man can fill this post, only technology can. Devise strong technological solutions and we will finally attain a corruption free society.
There are several systems established to prevent corruption. Another system will simply be swallowed into that set. What is needed is transparency and technology as a mediator. With technology, there can be no bribing. And as an impartial judge that is the only solution.